Stuttering and Moving Beyond Abelism

Transcript

Maya:

If I Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters welcome to Proud stutter a Show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time.

Welcome back to Proud stutter today. Our co-host today is Benjamin Benjamin. Can you let us know a little bit about you?

Benjamin:

Yes my name bird Torres Sanchez thank you so much Maya for having me. A podcast it's such an honor to be able to collaborate with you. I'm coming to this space as an adopted an adoption of foster care abolitionist. I myself was separated from my first family for 28 years through a private. National adoption process that was administrated by lawyers and social workers who first coerced my mom out of her parental rights and then through the adoption process displacement to the US but I've said I'm really excited to get into it.

Maya:

Thank you so much Benjamin for being so open and for being here and our guest today is Caitlin Caitlin. Do you want to introduce yourself?

Kaityln:

Hi everyone. My name is Katlin a borsalis.

Maya:

Thank you so much Caitlin for being here just to add a little bit more about Caitlin Katelyn is a biracial Filipina. She's a co-founder and she's a writer living in Arlington, Virginia. So normally I go first to our guest but Benjamin I actually want to start with you as someone who does not stutter. Can you share a little bit about your experiences. If any with the stuttering a community.

Benjamin:

Thank you so much for that question. I think throughout my life. Of course. I have shared space with people who stutter through Public School my classmates and college. I studied theater and performance. And so something I really noticed in that context was the way that our training was deeply ableist and also not very culturally relative and so people's voices whether their voice stutters or has an accent that our professors and teachers deemed to be non-standard for us American English speaking. We're really aggressively asked to change their voice. And so I think that is the most direct context where I have encountered people demanding and sound and Express in articulate in a really specific way and certainly I did have classmates who enacting school who studied or list or voices that were were looked at as non-standard which of course is deeply ableist. Thank you for that. And I love the term non-standard because usually I use the term normal absolutely and I all underscore that I think who is labeling a voice as non-standard is really really important to just register all of my acting professors voices met what people think of as standard US American English. And so of course that's loaded with racial associations class associations access to education associations. Yeah standard is not standard. We all have accents. We all have beautiful unique voice.

Kaityln:

I'm reflecting on and is coming up as a through line for me as I was understanding my stuttering and even my own other invisible disabilities was kind of the role in a of school with that. So many of my own negative self-image came from what teachers or peers what label as non-standard Behavior which really kind of carved the way for how I think about myself as a now 30 year old. So I think to hear that reflected again just shows to me how important those connections are.

Maya:

Can you talk a little bit about your journey to becoming a co-founder and being a leader in the disability space?

Kaityln:

In 2017. I founded a business with my colleague and now friends called the melanin Collective which is basically a communal space for women of color who are trying to navigate to toxic work environments and that business is disability-owned minority owned. But one of the things we're always learning me and my co-founder are all the things that we don't know and even for myself as someone who stutters I didn't realize that verbal diversity is something that we should definitely be looking at kind of in this in the scope of our work and I think that like those intersections with you know me as a stutterer me who identifies as a woman of color really is kind of why I'm here today right to talk about that sort of them self self-advocacy and different spaces because when you're struggling with like how to speak up for yourself as someone with a marginalized identity who might not like physically be able to speak. Sometimes that can be so damaging really examining. I guess Customs that lead people to be silenced. It's just really interesting for me.

Maya:

I really wish I had been able to stick up for myself and many of the toxic work environments. I was in. so, thank you so much for For doing that work. I think it's extremely important.

So I want to talk about activism. We're all activists here in this space and I I'm curious how to stuttering show up in your activism Kaityln.

Kaityln:

I don't know if unfortunately is the right word, but I feel like it's still progressing. I think the first time I knew that my voice was non-standard was in fourth grade and even then like very hyper like hypervigilant about how I feel. Kind of presented in the school spaces. I remember this this one time that I was late to class and the class was already kind of like Midway through an activity and I was trying to ask the teacher. You know, what what I should be doing. What is the class doing? But I couldn't like say like nothing would come up. So she asked if I was stupid there have been other moments like that in school that really just solidified for me that I needed to just not talk and not show up and uplift other people because I just physically couldn't do it or I guess like my my voice couldn't do it and that's actually been something that I've been trying to unpack even with my work at the Mel and then Collective. I'm really lucky to have a supportive friend who is always reminding me that I deserve to be in a space one of the things that was really a challenge for me when we first started kind of like presenting or even talking to other people about our work goes that I had massive imposter syndrome about talking like I didn't want to and I belittled myself let people kind of like talk over me and things like that and she's been kind of coaching me to not do that because even though I have a stutter and it's you know, my voice is like non-standard I we all deserve To say what we want. So that's something that I'm I still don't know if I've figured it out or even like internalized quite yet. But yeah, I guess that's kind of a my journey in a nutshell so far.

Maya:

Yeah. I've I've definitely struggled with imposter syndrome as well and I think I've always attributed it to something. That isn't my starter because I feel like the root of all my insecurities really is in my stutter, but I never wanted to admit that because admitting it. Just means it's it's there and it's something that I'll never be able to overcome. So I feel like it wasn't until I came out as a person who stuttered I finally found. The root cause or one of the root. I'm sure there's a lot more but one of the root causes of why I hold back and why I question myself and you know, there's a lot there Beyond stuttering but I just feel like as soon as I came out as a stutter so much of myself was finally being realized. And I feel like I'm a different person now versus before I came out.

And so what you just said. really just struck a chord in me and

Kaitlyn:

Yeah, so I really appreciate you sharing that I'm kind. I'm I'm reflecting right now. So don't take my silences not being present.

Maya:

Yeah, we like silence on this podcast I speak especially because I think it's so when you're in spaces. I think there's this natural instinct to fill in silence. And even as people who stutter I always when I'm struggling with getting out of word. There's always this pool from others around me to fill in my silence. And so But sometimes silence is good. I don't know if it's appropriate to ask you a question. I was just curious to hear about how do you think about yourself as I don't know like the person you were before you came out with a stutter versus after and has that made kind of speaking up for yourself easier. I think it's made connecting with other people a lot easier because even through my life when I would hide my stutter I felt like by hiding my stutter I would be able to connect more with people because it would be easier to communicate and but after I came out I realized that people weren't really connecting with me because I was hiding such a big part of myself. And so It's kind of when with my stutter. It's kind of a double-edged sword in that. It's hard to connect with a stutter and it's hard connecting when you're hiding your stutter. And so think what may like and what what it is really to be human means to form connections with people. So as people with speech differences that can sometimes get in the way of fully Connecting with someone and even though I was doing such good work before I came out like I was advocating for affordable housing and all these good causes. The foundation of my connections was just not as strong and I feel like ever since coming out. I've really been able to step into my power more and and do things that I never thought possible not because of my stutter and that I'm open about it, but more of just getting over that impostor sit. syndrome which still happens, but I just feel like I'm I see myself as much more powerful now.

Benjamin:

I wanted to ask because y'all are talking about connecting with others and the impact of having social Community the advocacy and organizing work that I'm a part of is. With adopted fostered and traffic to people we as a group are really really dispersed. You know, there's no geographical kind of bounding to our community and I imagine the same is true with folks who stutter that you find people through the internet and other channels that may be very near to you or very very far away. And so I'm interested in just any perspective that either of you have to give about forming social community. And yeah, I have so many questions but I'll start I'll just check it there

Kaitlyn:

One of the reflections that I was thinking about as you're asking the question is just the most rudimentary form of connection, which is like your name and it was reminding me of like my experience as a child not being able to say my name like even when I had to pronounce my last name, you know that that is very hard for me like bees and K's are unfortunately like really difficult words for me or sounds so I'm like I did not win like the like the sound jackpot with my name just remembering that you know, I'd go over to a friend's house and a parent would ask me my name and I couldn't say it and it was just like I remember this like profound like Waterfall of Shame just like coming over me. Like, how can I not say my own name? Like that's so embarrassing and so in that way I feel like and this is like part of my own. I guess Journey Only to understand myself was that I was really scared of connection because You have to let people know who you are. And there were so many times that I couldn't so I don't know. Yeah, and and tamaya's point. I don't want to sign too much blame, you know, there are other factors apart from my stutter, but I'm I'm always in this like questioning space of how much did it contribute to the fact that I didn't have a ton of connections when I was a young person. It really was into my like mid adulthood that I was actually able to make some connections to people and coincidence or not. It was all usually Around when I was starting to tell people like I have trouble with words, sometimes I get nervous and I don't know what about that was so freeing and why that opened me up tomorrow relationships. That's just something that I was thinking about.

Maya:

I want to dig in a little bit more about the workplace because it seems like both of our experiences and perhaps even Benjamin's experience has been very it hasn't been designed in a way where it's supporting us as as people and so can you talk a little bit more about Kaityln your experience in the workplace and maybe you know how you were treated and yeah, just getting into that a little bit deeper.

Maya:

Starting point for all conversations about the workplaces that it's not designed as an institution. The workplace is not designed for people who are not, you know, heterosexual White.

And male even things about like like four less than lighting not being good. Everything is just designed around kind of that very narrow identity. So any Divergence outside of that including how we speak as seen as a tick against us like a personal failing and that's something that is deeply deeply frustrating to me because it's not about you or me. It's about the system that we work in. So one of the things that

I try to do in a very micro way right now is always sharing resources about verbal diversity about stuttering. If I see people kind of poking fun at someone else for how they talk I try to like lightly call them in just to like normalize that there's not a one right way of doing things. I still feel like I'm reverting to my child's self. We'll say that. Yeah, I'm not prepared or

You know, I don't communicate. Well, that's something that I've heard about a lot like in past performance reviews like I don't speak clearly or I don't articulate myself well enough and I'm just hoping that there's gonna be a day that I can give myself that. that protection that I give to sort of other people, but I think for the meantime, it really just starts with that education and just showing people that this is not a bad thing and The other part that I'm that I was thinking about to when it comes to something there's the workplace and then the activism the one thing that I am really hyper aware of and still don't know how to kind of deal with is you know, there is almost like a right way to talk and like the vocabulary and like vernacular you use and for someone who stutters, you know, those words aren't always accessible to me because I just like literally can't say them. So I'll have to like work my way around it and I have experienced kind of being like policed for the words that I use and it's I it's deeply frustrating.

And you know, sometimes you don't have good like strong enough relationships with people to say like this is why I can't say this, but just something that I've noticed and I'm still trying to wrestle with I think in my own kind of activism work. Wow, that is such an amazing point and I've never thought of it that way but before because I think there is in the activism space which we're all in there. Is this protection that we have for our communities and using the right language and You know being sensitive to being misjudged or mislabeled and I totally feel. That's definitely. They're like they like they have every right to feel like that. We have every right to feel like that but I think there is that that's like such a good point and like, how can we also like while we're making space for all these types of identities and All these different communities as we're making space. for

For everyone else like how can we make space for ourselves in that? And so And it's it's tough. And I've I've been thinking about this a lot. Like there's I haven't really come up with the right way to show up in activism spaces when it comes to that particular piece of language and being respectful. but I think the more we can naturally normalize stuttering I think that will chip at how we can make space for not being able to say all the things we want to say.

Benjamin:

I would say too that the culture that some spaces hold where there are right and wrong ways to say things that a lot of that is inherited from white supremacy culture from patriarchy from ableism that there's I mean even this term that we're kind of like choosing to use in this moment of standard or non-standard of course, like comes from a person's perspective that is normative. Right? And so like there isn't such thing as a standard voice but then we inherit this like the standard from somewhere and I feel like that also trickles down to the words and language we use I would so much rather be in a space with somebody who can hear my truth and say like, oh actually in this moment I prefer you use this other way or let me tell you about my experience and it might reshape the way the language that you use but that it's more about like care and compassion, you know as like a gender fluid like trans non-binary person all of my colleagues misgender me sometimes but

I would so much rather somebody just correct in the moment or if I address it with them say oh, yeah, I'll work on it and and get better next time, you know rather than approach with defensiveness or rejection of my experience. All we can do is try to meet each other having compassion for people's learning as long as they also have openness to what they're being asked to do and come through for me is the the number one and keeps us from having like rigidity in our movement spaces. If this feels like good to answer now a question that I've been wanting to ask you Katelyn is like both in your organizing with women of color and holding your experiences somebody who stutters. I know that for me. I can no longer meet and spaces with people who are where the only thing binding is together is identity. Like I would not go to an adopt person only space just because everyone is adopted at this point in my life. I want to meet with adopted fostered in traffic people who also share my value, you know, I'll say as a light skin Colombian person like there's hella spaces for Colombian people who are very that are very white supremacists that are very nationalists that are all these things that I, you know, don't want to share space with and so I've signed out comrades. Yeah, we share my values and so I'm curious like either what values you try to draw towards yourself and your your advocacy and activism and organizing and also like what values you feel like you hold because you're you haven't experience of stuttering?

Kaityln:

At the Melt so at the melanin Collective, we're always leading with our values but I've realized that I don't think I've ever spent time reflecting on the things that I value maybe in like concrete words, but for me the things that come up when I'm thinking about the people who have chosen to be kind of my family are things like openness like openness as a way to avoid rigidity as you were kind of talking about empathy very empathetic person to a fall honoring identity that that is really important to me. My biggest pet peeve in life is smooth smoothing over or assuming that all people have the same experiences. I really want to know people.

For who they are where they came from and how that has led them to be kind of where they're at. Now that is very interesting to me and then author authenticity, which is again, I think one of the reasons why I've been able to you know, I have a small core set of friends, but the people who I think of who have my back or the people who I've been able to say like I stutter this causes me a lot of anxiety and shame and they've really embraced and accepted me because yes, I think looking kind of Only at building relationships off of identity. I think it could be a starting point.

Maya:

So Kaityln you grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood upper class. Can you talk about your upbringing being a woman of color having a stutter? What was that like for you growing up?

Kaityln:

When I was growing up, you know, I think the culture that really taught me that I was a problem was that culture of like white Catholicism. I went to a private school during Elementary School and by far I I my family was on as wealthy as the people who went there. I don't think I looked too similar to many of the people who are there just a lot of different opportunities that they had access to that. I that I didn't teachers insulting. My intelligence was just something I experience a lot as a kid.

Maya:

How about your family? My Filipino family?

Kaitlyn:

We never talked about stuttering. I don't remember that. I don't know if my mom or dad ever brought it up, but it was always just like this welcoming home base that can come to and feel like myself and even in In therapy because I love therapy. We were talking kind of talking about my stutter as it relates to like nervousness. And you know, we were exploring the fact that when I was most nervous as when I would stutter the most and I was not nervous around my family, so it never really came up. So all that's to say is I'm I'm really fascinated by this question because it's like bringing up for me like how Being in a place that doesn't see you or accept. You can make you feel that you're not right even when you have this whole other community. On the other like side of town who accept you and love you for who you are.

Maya:

One of my favorite things about season 2 is being able to connect dots between stuttering and different topics and different groups of people that have been marginalized by the society and one of those One of those groups is the one that Benjamin is a part of and and Benjamin I just I love for you to talk more about your work and where you see the connections to the stuttering Community?

Benjamin:

My work is like really solidly in adoption and Foster Care abolition some other kinds of terminology that I and other impacted people use is family regulations systems abolition or family policing abolition or family separation systems atholition. What we do know is that systems like adoption and Foster Care use regulations surveillance and policing as solutions to political economic and social problems. I and others believe that there are different ways that we can go about this primarily by changing our priorities within Society like whatever we resourcing

And how and for whom breaking down a lot of the different kinds of isms that we've already talked about today. And so I want to see a world where we don't abandon people. I think that the government and this is the way that I think that stuttering and family regulation intersect the government routinely operates and many different kinds of organized ways. But as the scholar wreath Wilson Gilmore has offered us the government also participates in organized abandonment. So intentional organized ways that people are discarded in society. So whether we're talking about Foster Care Systems or prisons, or the way that the way our world is constructed disabled people. We see a direct connection within foster care and adoption Market places, which that's what they are their their markets.

For their transfer of children between families. There's a price tag, right and much has been written about the racialized dimension of this which is like again following white supremacy putting quote unquote adoptable children at the top of the hierarchy and black quote unquote adoptable children at the bottom literally attaching a lower price tag to the fees and processes associated associated with adopting a black child. But of course, none of these kinds of experiences are in isolation. So so too does the marketplace like follow ableist logic and so there would be a lower kind of price for like fees for services and for the process for any children with disabilities and of course like the most quote unquote desirable baby is an infant children. then our learning language and finding a voice. I think absolutely something like a stutter would be noted in a case File and a would be adopting parent who is like literally shopping for the child that they find most acceptable but may choose to say no. I don't want to adopt somebody who has a stutter and so like Just as they might say. No, I don't want to adopt somebody with a physical disability. You know, there's really really intense like me bias or oppressive oppression within the industry. And so I think we have to recognize that adoption and foster care deeply racist systems deeply ableist systems deeply assist systems the weight of these forces on my and other impacted comrades within our sphere organizing like absolutely touch on things that have been mentioned today and I think the final comment I want to make is the something that I feel like adopted fostered in traffic people can learn from disability Justice movements is interdependence, you know the fact that we have to break out of our silence and work with people who are different from Us and I think like there's a often a lot of resistance to partnering with people who don't share our experiences because they're often so marginalized by these forces, but ultimately we need each other. So like I my it's such a huge gift and I have so much gratitude to you for inviting me into this space and we have to have to see each other and work together because I think you know Caitlin as you related to alluded to earlier like our Liberation is bound together. Our movements need each other.

Kaityln:

That was amazing. I was writing down so many things what you're saying.

One thing that really instructed me and is something that I'm really hopeful for the future. Is that part about creating a world where we don't abandon others. I think so much of the work that I do outside of my nine to five is like obsessed with that Central tenant. Like how do we bring people along in this world that is burning a bit a lot of terrible things are happening on a daily basis. But how do we make sure that we're not abandoning each other in the process of our own like healing and just trying to shed all of these like oppressive like vines that have just final thought of our own like Wrapped around our bodies. So I'm really resonating with that and just the other thing maybe a little bit more. censoredom on myself is that I'm really you know stutter and all I'm really trying to lean in and hopefully through this podcast also invite others to lean in to figuring out what really brings you Joy in life. Even if that means going after something that traditionally might be closed to you. And right now for me that looks like getting a PhD that's some I love learning. I love being kind of nerdy I guess or let me not shoot myself down in that way, but as someone with the stutter Academia seemed closed to me because of you know, just how you have to show up in a space, but I've recently come to Other realizations that I can make it work differently for me. So again, just going after what you want leaning into that and realizing that it could look different. For you that experience can look different for you. You don't have to retrofit yourself to make others happy. I guess. Yeah.

Maya:

Well, I think that is a very good place to end.

Thank you so much Caitlin and Benjamin for being here for sharing your hearts with me. This was.

A conversation that I'm going to keep with me for a very very long time and thank you all for listening and I will see you next time on proud stutter.

So episode of proud stutter this episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me my chupkov. Our music was composed by Augusto Denise and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noah chupkov.

If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode visit us at www.proudstutter.com, and if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast want to leave us a voicemail check out our show notes for the number to call in more importantly tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening be proud and be you.