Advice & Hope: An Elementary School Teacher’s Stuttering Story w/ Melissa Herrera

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

I'm Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters Welcome to proud stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. one conversation at a time

Welcome back to proud stutter. Today I am joined by Melissa Herrera, our guest co host for this episode. Melissa is the host and producer of Mimosa sisterhood, a podcast that celebrates women's stories, past and present. We will be interviewing our guests for today's episode. Kylie Eastland. Kylie is an elementary school teacher. Welcome to the show, Melissa and Kylie. So Kylie, what was life like for you growing up? Did stuttering have an impact on your childhood?

Kyeli Eastland:

My family moved from California to Oregon when I was going into middle school. And I had been with the same cohort of students since I was in preschool. And so my stutter was never you know, the occasional the occasional playground. Make fun of me. But I had, you know, a group of friends who would defend me and stand up for me. And so it was fine. And it wasn't until I we moved, and I was the new kid in new state, you know, new school in middle school, which at that age is is challenging. It's really challenging. And those years of redefine who I was, and growing up with this speech impediment, I know I'm a pretty I'm a pretty sociable person, I like to say I'm an introverted extrovert, because there's times when I, I love being with others, and I, you know, I have a lot of things to say, and I love talking to people. And as a person who stutters, you know, you're always, there's just a sphere that you just carry with you about, you know, how's it gonna go, when I have to say my name, you know, my, my name starts with a K. And that's a really hard, you know, continent to get out often. And I'm really prone to block on on that down. And I think, I've always just pretended like, it hasn't been a big deal. And my way to cope with my stutter growing up with, you know, it kind of like if I make fun of it before anyone else can then I have control over I hold power. And I learned a lot of masking strategies, I was obsessed with controlling it. And I think that as I got older, I just kind of started to repress.

Maya:

I, too, was a new kid. And I was in fourth grade when I changed schools. And that was by far, my toughest year, I was bullied. And I think because of my stutter, I was targeted as weak. I also develop masking strategies, just so I wouldn't put myself in the same situation as in fourth grade, and be looked at as weak. And so that leads me to my next question, Kylie, can you recall a transformative moment around your relationship with your stutter, it could be recent or something from your childhood.

Kyeli:

This past two years have been really challenging on all of us individually. And just as a global community, I'm an elementary school teacher. So when the pandemic started, and we shifted to distance learning, we had to teach it on Zoom online, and the thought of being inside, you know, my students, homes and all of their parents and everybody, you know, hearing the stutter in their homes, I had always felt nervous about how my stutter in impacted my ability to teach, but I had never had to kind of face that fear of being on such a public stage before. And so I really had to work to overcome that fear. And I think I haven't recognized it until recently. But it really helps to grow my confidence and accepting my stuttering truly, as part of my identity, which is something that I've said about myself before that I'm proud of it. But I think I've realized that that was a lie. And it's really the only recent that I've met other people in the stuttering community and worked to really reframe and reshape what it means to have a stutter for myself and for others around me.

So this past two years, more than two years now, has been a continual, progressive, transformative journey for myself.

Maya:

Kylie, have you always wanted to be a teacher and did your stutter ever make an impact on your decision to pursue teaching?

Kyeli:

when we moved from California to Oregon, I wanted to place stock but it didn't work out. And so my mom was, you know, talking with me about other things we could do. And she was like, you know, have you ever considered taking, like a hip hop class or jazz class dance class. And at first, I was kind of turned off of the idea. But there was a local studio in Central Oregon that I ended up, you know, taking a couple of classes in and I fell in love with it, I just I loved, I loved everything about it, and ended up being with that same studio, throughout middle school in high school. And as I got older, there were opportunities to teach. So I started teaching tap and jazz to kids. And I loved the mentorship role of it, I loved the connections, and the relationships that I built. And I think I kind of reignited that, like internal, you know, initial spark that I had about wanting to be a teacher, I don't think I ever want it to be or even to this day love teaching, because I don't, it's not the, it's not necessarily just the instruction, like teaching the content, but it's the building relationships and helping kids to, you know, see themselves for who they are and, and recognize, you know, their internal strengths. And so, I think a little bit of my reason of becoming a teacher was being the person that I needed as a kid, in order to, you know, help me see that, you know, my stutter, and for other of my students, you know, whether they're neuro diverse, or whatever it is, that makes them, you know, unique and different than others that to truly see it as a strength and, and not just how I lived my life, which was pretending that it was but in reality, doing everything I could to hide it. There.

Melissa:

Yeah, Kylie, there was a couple of things that you said that, like got my brain thinking. You had like sort of mentioned how you had experienced, you know, a bit of bullying as a child growing up with a stutter, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest, unfortunately. But then it got me to thinking about you as an elementary school teacher, and once again, being in a setting with school kid. And I'm curious if you've experienced that from any of your students, how do you sort of introduce this to the kids at the school? And have you ever faced any childhood trauma bullying resurface, you know, all these years later, that sort of give you flashbacks to you as a child?

Kyeli:

Yes, and I do bring up my stutter, the first day of school that, you know, when we're sitting in our activity circle, I introduce myself and I say, you know, you might hear when I see some words, sometimes sometimes it's hard for me to get those words out and I explain, you know, I have something called a stutter, a stutter as a speech impediment. So I give them the language. You know, I explained what it might sound like, and then I just tell them, if you know, when I stutter, be patient, and I promise I'm trying my best, it's gotten easier for me to have this conversation. And I've also learned more about myself as a stutter and what I truly want people that I talk with to know but I just I just honest with them, I say, you know, sometimes the words I say sound, you know, they might sound strange, they might sound different times it makes me uncomfortable, it might make you uncomfortable. And that's okay. You know, if you have questions, you can always ask me, I try to bring it back to empathy. And, you know, when I was I was growing up, sometimes people made fun of the way I sounded. And they're always so cute. They're like, this is that I don't think like, I liked the way that you say the words. And they're, they're so just inspiring and, and kind. So I just, honestly, my kids, I've never had an issue. Unfortunately, it's other adults. And I just think that that just goes to show that having, you know, resources, like like this one proud center that Maya has provided are so incredible, because it's just, it's just broadening the conversation and the education for it. Because it just goes to show that, you know, they haven't probably met somebody that has a stutter, or they're just uneducated about it. And I have had a couple situations where I've met people, and I've introduced myself and I've, you know, stuttered and I know, my eyes hurt at all. It's like the Oh, did you forget your name? Or they laugh or, you know, they kind of mimic you? I haven't been brave enough to come out and say, Oh, I have a stutter. I'm getting there. But when if they learn about it, if it's a person that I even become closer friends with, you know, that person has come back with me and apologized for that. And I, I say, you know, it's okay. Thank you for, for doing that. So I think from what I have learned being a teacher is that if you just have the conversation about, you know, what diversity is and what neurodiversity is, and disabilities and just being respectful to others, if you have those conversations earlier, that will truly help to just raise the next generation of people that accept that as just normal. I don't know anybody that hasn't had a moment where they haven't Ste. nattered I just happen to do it more often.

Maya:

The earlier we start having these conversations like elementary preschool like these kids are sponges, and they'll internalize a lot of these things for their whole lives. And so I think we need to have more elementary school teachers who stutter and or just under, or not even who stutter, but just have those types of kind of variations around disability and diversity in very young ages. I think that's really important.

Kyeli:

Yeah, and I think it just, it just goes to show why representation is so important. And it's important that you see yourself in stories and in the books you read, and the shows you watch and the podcasts you listen to. And every student I've had, I've been teaching, it's, it's my fifth year, every group of students that I've had, which is over 100, by now, which is amazing. I know that if when hopefully, when they meet another person, you know, who's who's debtors, they'll just be better prepared to be an ally to that person. I didn't meet another person who stuttered until I started working in an elementary school, one of my my co workers who is one of the most incredible women I've ever had the pleasure to meet. And I cannot explain the relief it is to just talk about a shared experience with someone you know, when the pandemic hit. And we I was able to reach out and meet other people who stutter or people who don't stutter and just are curious and want to know more about it and educate themselves. Just this excitement that I didn't realize that I was gonna have, you know, over it. Yeah, I never felt fully understood until I met someone else. That stuttered. It's such a human thing to like bond over similar experiences, like, yes, we're talking about stuttering, but there's so many other things. That is a unique experience that people can can bond over. I think podcasting is just a great way to help spread more awareness.

Melissa:

Absolutely. And it's accessible. You know, as long as you have a computer and an internet connection, you pretty much anybody can kind of make a podcast in this day and age, which we can't say about an HBO television series or, you know, a quick novel. Like, I feel like it's one of the most affordable and available tools that is like the quickest way to kind of get that message out and to also connect with other like minded people. I mean, the fact that your podcast has already connected you to so many people or even at the convention, you know, when you my introduce your podcast, like I feel like every single person responded with like, Oh, I know somebody with a stutter, or my sibling has a stutter, or my coworker or whatever. And I I've never known that. There were that many people in the world with stutters until I was with you walking around, and everybody we interacted with knew somebody with a stutter. And I'm like, holy wow.

Maya:

Because I just think deals aren't conversations being had until the conversations being had and then you really see like, this is, you know, it's there's somebody I think, like everybody in the world has a direct connection in some way to another person with a stutter. And it was really cool to kind of see them connect with you and be excited about what you were doing. Yeah. And it's interesting, because through proud stutter I've met, met people that they never labeled themselves as a person who stutters because I think there's like a fear in that once you own it, it's like more real and you can't just like, suppress it. And I feel like that's, that was my whole life. Just until October, I spent my whole life trying to hide this part of myself to come off a certain way. And like once you own it in a public way, there's no turning back. So I might as well just run with it. It's It's very freeing, but then at the same time, I still get those feelings when I'm like about to like earlier.

Today, I had to welcome a panel. And I had a script and everything and even with everything with proud stutter I'm still just like, Oh, if I stutter like what are they going to think? So it's like those things are still so ingrained in me and yes, I've come a long way but it's okay to like still, you know, have those feelings of like not totally being proud of your stutter like I like to say I am but there are moments when I try to hide my stutter. It's just kind of like ingrained in me it's really important to easy on yourself because it's a journey and sometimes you're gonna hate your stutter and sometimes you're gonna love it.

Kyeli:

I think that also just the spreading awareness and how I've seen that kind of I affect schools in the educational setting, you know, when you stuttering is a pretty typical part of development up until a certain point, and then it becomes okay. You know, is this something that we want to connect with this speech language speech language pathologist on? It's that's been another interesting part about being a person who stutters working in a school setting is sometimes I wonder if people are like, you've gone to speech, like, shouldn't you have fixed this kind of thing. And I have my own journey and experience with speech therapy. And I think that everybody should have autonomy over whether they want to, you know, find resources or coping mechanisms. But what I, what I have seen as of late with stuttering is just a really big emphasis on making sure that when we talk about stuttering, so much of it is how they feel about their stutter, how they feel when they stutter, and how they feel about them themselves as a person who stutters. And I want to really worked to bring that awareness to one we identify, you know, students in elementary school who have a stutter. And, you know, when we're having conversations about, you know, what their, what their treatment, and what that what that therapy looks like, making sure that we're not framing it as there is something wrong with you, you know, it's asking them, how do they feel about their center? You know, what do they want to get out of speech therapy, you know, Is the goal to be fluent is thought to learn strategies to to not settle at all? Or is the goal to just become more comfortable with those times when you have to introduce somebody, or for me, it's like, I avoid any time that I have to read a number over the phone. I like a credit card number reading over the phone is like my worst nightmare I avoided at all costs, because inevitably, I'm going to stutter. And it is that same thing, what is that person going to do? Are they gonna laugh? Are they gonna ask you to repeat it? Usually, they just say, Oh, I think your phone connection is breaking up. And I just go along with it and say, oh, yeah, that's right. A huge part of it is just the emotional side of it.

Maya:

As someone who doesn't stutter. Melissa, has there been a time in your life where you felt like very understood by meetings, someone that maybe you had, like a common bond with or something?

Melissa:

Yeah, I mean, every time on my own podcast, when I bring a guest on the show, who's passionate about celebrating Women's stories, half of what I do on my podcasts is tell stories about women from history. And we each will tell a story of a woman from history. But you know, most of the time I'm showing up with somebody I've never met in real life, somebody I've maybe connected with briefly online, via social media, maybe we've exchanged if you you know, comments, DMS, most often this person lives in another state across the country. By the end of that podcast recording, I've like developed a new friend and I'm like, Oh my God, I feel so bonded to you, as two women who are both passionate about uplifting women's stories and celebrating all the ups and downs of a life because there are great things, bad things, difficult things, they overcome huge successes that they experience. And nothing ever happens without so many challenges. And while the women vary, the stories have a lot of similar themes. And it's just really amazing. You know, at the end of that experience to feel we've both just done good together as complete strangers. And you know, there's this element of sisterhood in my podcast and I always feel like I've sort of practice sisterhood and a sense with a complete stranger. And I feel like that's just super special in my life. I don't have a ton of really intimate girlfriend relationships. Yet I have developed so many of them through my podcast community and the guests that have come on my show and that has just truly made me feel accepted. Seen not alone. And it's been really empowering.

Maya:

So yeah, I feel like ever since I started proud stutter like I finally feel like because of my stutter, I do sometimes feel the need to like overcompensate and to like prove myself and so I want to be careful, because sometimes it's like, I have to make sure that I'm doing it for me and I'm not doing it to overcompensate because of my stutter. Because all my life I've tried to like over compensate and like, do all these amazing things because I wanted to prove everyone that I'm just a normal person and that I can do all these things and that just because I have a stutter doesn't mean I can't do these things. And so I think with the podcast, I've really found that balance.

Kylie, do you ever feel the need to like overcompensate or like because I've read and I've witnessed that that tends to to run in stuttering a lot.

Kyeli:

Definitely, I can empathize with that. And mental health is something that I also have found the we've, we've really worked to, like, you know, break down the stigma around talking about it and those feelings of you know, anxiety, you know, I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, when I was in high school high school was really hard for me, that's when the bullying around my stutter, you know, really intensified and I think I started to really just shut down talking in settings with people I didn't know because I didn't want to risk, you know, what they would think about me or what I what I thought that they would think about me everything was this, you know, this fear of even trying so it could have been fine, but in my head wasn't going to be fine. As a teacher, I'm definitely very hard on myself, you know, impostor syndrome is real. But I feel like, I love what I do, you know, hearing, hearing both of you talk about, you know, your podcast and this using your creativity in a way that, you know, allows you to spread awareness, you know, build connections with people build relationships is, is so powerful. And I I, I do feel like a being a teacher is where I am meant to be, you know, one of the one of the the coping tools that I've read about for people who stutter teaching, especially in lower elementary school, often days, it's like, you're on a stage like you are you are putting on a show, especially in these last weeks of the school year. And I just, it's just fun. And it's, it's one of those moments where I don't have to, I don't have to try to pretend I'm someone that I'm not, I get to just kind of be authentically who I am. And I stutter a lot. And I often, you know, ask students to help me read words, but I also feel like my stutter has helped me to be a better teacher and a better educator in so many ways, because I have a stutter. You know, I have so many additional, like visual resources for my students to use because I know that it's going to be really hard for me to say all these things in front of them. So if I read them up on the board, that's one more tool that I have, and it's also beneficial for my students. So I think that I while I do struggle, to feel like I need to overcompensate to prove people wrong. I feel like every day that I am in the classroom, I am just more sure and confident that it's where I want to be because it allows me to it's the only place where I felt I can truly be who I am. My stutter doesn't get in the way.

Kyeli:

That's incredible. It's just like ultimate freedom.

Maya:

It really is the ultimate freedom. And I just wish that feeling upon everyone, no matter if you stutter, or you don't stutter. So Kylie, I had another question for you. I hadn't really myself opened up about my feelings towards my stutter until launching the podcast. Do you talk about stuttering with your family?

Kyeli:

I honestly feel like it's only been very recent that I have brought up with my my family kind of my stutter. When I told my mom and my my family that I was, you know, going to be interviewed on this podcast, I think that it was the first kind of step in starting that conversation. I've I've always been pretty headstrong and independent. And I think that as a as a kid, even even with my family, you know, I just I pretended like it didn't bother me and and if as long as I acted that way, then nobody brought it up. I didn't start going to speech therapy until I was in I think middle school or high school. There's something that I think I asked my parents if I could go and do because I it had started to really affect, you know, my ability in high school to to meet new people speech therapy, it didn't work out for me, I think that the ideology of the speech therapist that I was working with was was very much a you know, there's like, the goal is to not stutter at all. And it was very much framed in a like there is that is a disability, there's something wrong and we're going to work to you know, get rid of this, when in reality, I needed somebody to tell me that it's okay to stutter. I didn't I didn't receive that. Honestly, I haven't talked with my family. Right, nearly enough about how hard it was. I think growing up with it. I feel awful. I definitely got my little brother in trouble a couple of times by saying that he made fun of my stutter when he didn't because I knew like that was going to be the trump card for you know, IANA Fie, like I was gonna win. If I accuse him of this and it's terrible. I only did it like twice but I still to this day, during so much skill and the look on his face because he would they would never, and he was actually one of the first people that I told about being on this podcast because I just, I knew that he would understand, you know what it meant to talk about that part of me and I think he's always known that it's a much bigger part of me And then I've wanted to admit.

Maya:

You did mention labeling stuttering as a disability. And for me, when I first started thinking about that, I was like, No, I don't have a disability, what are you talking about? But then when I started to think about it more, and when I started writing about my stutter, I realized that oh my god, I do have a disability. And I was so afraid of owning it, because I thought people would think I was like, faking it, or something. I don't know. Like, that was my biggest fear. But then, as soon as I just started, like, just claiming it, the more I was like, Yes, it is a disability. And so I'm just wondering, like, do you consider your stutter as a disability? And if you can, like, expand on why or why not?

Kyeli:

Yeah, I have a very similar experience. For the longest time, I never, I think, wanted to admit that it, it was a disability, because, you know, I am otherwise perfectly healthy, and I can I can access, you know, the world around me. And I felt like it was in valid in valid dating the disabilities of others, but I think, you know, being a teacher I have, I have conversations about, you know, students that are have learning disabilities and learning differences, and, you know, who are neuro diverse. And when we talk about, you know, inclusion, and making education accessible for all, you know, we talk about, we frame those, as, you know, those everybody deserves, you know, to access, learning, and education, and it's all about making the opportunity accessible for all and so for students, you know, that have ADHD, that's a disability, but, you know, but it has, like, a person with ADHD has so many strengths as well. And there's also things that are really challenging, you know, the classic ones are sitting still focusing on a task, there can be a lot of, you know, internalized shame for students who have ADHD, because it is harder for them to focus or pay attention. And I think that I have seen incredible growth in education on, you know, what learning looks like, and how students don't all need to fit into a box of being, you know, neurotypical, or accessing their learning in the same way, you know, a modern day classroom is not all students, you know, sitting in perfect rows by themselves, you know, their bodies are, are moving around, and they're using different stools or, you know, tools or gadgets. And I think for myself, recognizing that, I deserve to, you know, access the world, just like everyone else, and recognizing and labeling my stutter, as a disability allows me to validate those moments when, when I, it's harder for me, I won't say that I can't, because I really tried to think that we can do hard things, which is something that we've been talking about in my school this past month. So I think I've just really carrying that mantra with me. And because I think it's, we like to talk about type diversity and how it makes us really beautiful. But there's a difference between celebrating diversity and like ableism. And I think when you have a disability, which it's also taken me a really long time to recognize that a stutter, you know, can be seen as a disability, it doesn't allow me to access things in the same way that, you know, non senators might, I just kind of wanted to reframe the whole feeling that I grew up with, and I think my wants to do that has really inspired my work in becoming a teacher, and just really helping, you know, the younger generation to just to grow and there's like self confidence and self esteem and identity, and not feel like they are held back from pursuing any dream or passion that they want to even if that's just talking to other people, because for me, I can think of, you know, so many times when I just wanted to be brave enough to speak up or say or tell a joke, you know, when I was at at a party, and I just couldn't do it, because I was scared. And it's I think there's that fear that I don't want my own students to have. But you know, when I go to school, when I go to Starbucks and order my coffee and they asked for my name, you know, that is that's a tough that's a horrifying moment for me because I know I'm going to set I can't tell you how many times I've lied and said a name that's just easier to say like and my middle name is Anne and Kylie is one that I am far more likely to stutter on.

And so I think that, you know, times that I've had to read a credit card number over the phone, I've stuttered probably every single time and that is a different expense.

And then someone who doesn't have a stutter. And that's okay. And it's because of that disability that makes my experience different. It's more challenging in a lot of ways. There are some days where I like to say, it doesn't bother me at all. That's, that's not true, it does bother me. And it's because of this disability that I, I have, you know, all those different feelings. Something that I've been working with my therapists on the past year is recognizing that you can feel emotions at the same time, like emotions are not mutually exclusive, you can feel proud of your stutter, and also frustrated by it at the same time, that is okay. And validating both of those emotions, for myself, I think has really opened the door for me to not stutter less, but just be less scared of it.

Melissa:

Um, I was just going to like, I was just going to comment in general, based off of how you had described your experience with I think you said a speech therapist, how the experience wasn't great, because, like the point that you made a lot of the like, ideology behind it is sort of the purpose of fixing the stator, which implies it needs to be fixed, because it's a problem. And, you know, I never really thought of that before. And I love what you said, and you know that that's really not, I guess, unappropriate approach for every single person with a stutter, there might be some people who go into that type of speech therapy with the intent to get rid of it. And there might be other people who maybe want to go to the therapy with, you know, the intent to maybe improve things about it, or also just to have somebody there to kind of support them while they evolve in society where stuttering is, you know, a disability. And so I guess one thing I was curious about is like, Have you ever considered, like pursuing that type of career? Because I feel like it's still in like, the teaching realm. And, you know, you already work so well with children. And just curious if you've ever thought about, you know, since you didn't kind of get that for yourself, have you ever thought about sort of taking that direction in career and providing what you didn't get? For the kids that could be BB wanting that today?

Kyeli:

Yeah, I haven't considered for myself pursuing it. I will say that on on the trivia night that Maya hosted there was actually a speech language pathologist with a stutter. And I was blown away. Because what's like, no, that's not a thing. You know, we this is how, how, and even as a person who stutters and who, and who seeks to, you know, say, like, you can be anything you want to be, I still was like, except that, you know, and, and I don't know why, and what does that say about myself and how I perceive others, you know, with a stutter, and just listening to him talk was incredible. And I can only imagine how much cutter is equipped he is to do his job and help you know, his students or his patients, because of his lived experience and the connection that he has with them. And the trust that, you know, they're able to have in him that he understands the experiences because so much of having a stutter is the feelings of it, you know, the, the shame and the humiliation and the embarrassment of it. And I think that, you know, I mentioned earlier that I wanted to be, I wanted to be the person that not only that I needed, but that my little brother actually needed as well, because he is one of the most brilliant people. I'm not just saying that he is truly like one of the most intelligent people I've ever met. And he has ADHD. And it's, I believe, because of that, that he is able to access learning and knowledge in a way that a neurotypical individual can't cannot. But for the longest time, you know, he never recognized that potential in himself because he didn't fit into the box that, you know, the public school system needed him to.

And I think it's because, you know, growing up even in, you know, my generation, which isn't that far from my current students, there has just been such a shift in ideology toward any disability, and what it means about the individual and the potential of that student and recognizing that their disability is part of their identity. And if you are seeing their disability as a deficit, then you are causing harm you are hurting them. I feel with, you know, my center, there are students in my school who have a stutter. And I, you know, I want to, I have yet to have a student who, who stutters. And I will be, it will be really interesting for me, because you know, if having conversations with parents about what their goal is for their students, and making sure that their student has a voice in what they want, you know, often a student is seeking seeking speech therapy just because they want to talk about the experience of stuttering. And you know what that feels like?

And so I think that the role that I'm in right now is where I belong, because it just allows me to kind of teach and interact with the whole student. And I work side by side with our speech language pathologist who is incredible, and she absolutely recognizes that need to, you know, talk about this whole other other side of stuttering that is, you know, how the person feels and what are the personal goals for that student and making sure that their voice is involved in, you know, what their speech therapy experiences, which is really important, I think, for anyone that is seeking treatment or therapy for any disability.

Maya:

Well, I think that's a great place to end just because it kind of wraps it up in a nice little bow. And yeah, thank you both so much for being part of proud stutter. I honestly like I have so much to think about after everything we've talked about. So yeah, thank you both so much.

And that's it for this episode of proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by a gusto, Denise, and our artwork by Mara zekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www dot proud stutter.com. And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail? Check out our show notes for that the number to call in more importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.