Let Us Finish: Similarities Between Stuttering & Being In Recovery

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

If I Maya chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters welcome to Proud stutter a Show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time. Welcome back to another episode of proud stutter today. I am joined by Giselle Gaston our guest co-host.

Lupita Dorado: 

It's like, we're the same person. We're both trying to get things out and we can't. And it's so it's actually hilarious when we're like arguing, like me arguing with an almost five year old. And we're just we can't get things out of our mouth and it's like, okay, let's take a break. And I will say, I will tell her Okay, let's take a break, let's breathe. And then we can continue. So that, you know, so I don't, because I don't want her to feel the same way I did growing up.

Maya:

I'm Maya Chupkov. And I'm a woman who stutters Welcome to proud stutter, a show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it. one conversation at a time. Welcome back to proud stutter. That clip you just heard is from today's episode, Lupita is talking about what it sometimes is like between herself and her daughter, who also stutters. Lupita is a covert stutter. Working in the social services field, we talk about filler words what it's like to be a woman who stutters in the professional setting, and her process for becoming more comfortable in her stutter. Our guest co host for today is Jay Schiffman, the founder of choose your struggle, a company that aims to end stigma and promote honest and fact based education around substance misuse and recovery. Jay talks about his struggle with mental health, substance misuse and addiction, and uses his platform and voice to educate, entertain and empower. Here's our conversation with Lupita. And Jay. So Lupita, you and I met on social media. And I guess my first question is around what was your first interaction with the stuttering? Community? And how have you How has your stutter outlook changed over the last few months?

Lupita:

I didn't really have much of like, participation or really interaction with the stuttering community. I've been a until I came across you and the podcasts. And I've always been a covert stutter. And I have family members, a few family members who are who also stutter. And it's always spent kind of like just keep it on the low, don't really talk about it. Some interactions when I was younger was kind of like to make fun of soy that I never really made any effort to learn about stuttering or I didn't even know like the there was a community like I that was totally new. So it was very, it was very nice. It was emotional. And it was just really special to to learn and to come across proud stutter.

Maya

That makes me smile so big. I'm so glad you're here. And whether you like it or not, you're part of the proud starter community. So I hope you're okay with that.

Lupita:

Yes, definitely. And it's slowly but surely kind of getting out there and being open about my stutter and, and then also like learning about myself and learning that I've, throughout my whole life. I've had to, like, make my own like tricks or tactics to hide my stutter, which is something that I've learned that other people do too. And I learned it through your podcast, and it was just, I was mind blown. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I do that. And I do this. And I feel that too. So it was just it's been just so great to be able to listen to you and your guests and just relate. I feel so good.

Maya: 

And I'm curious, did you tell your family that you were doing this interview? I know. You said that you don't really talk about it too much. So this is probably a big step for for you.

Lupita:  

Yes, this is a huge and I did tell my sister about it and she's the only one that knows about it that I Been doing this, she's been a he's been a huge support and and like I said slowly getting comfortable with my stutter and being able to, like, accept and and. And let people know that I that I stutter and kind of get away from the tricks that I've done to hide it.

Maya:

And your stutter is actually a very interesting sounding because I can kind of hear here, you're avoiding of it. But if I didn't myself have a stutter, I probably wouldn't notice it. And, Jay, I'm wondering like, since you don't stutter, if if you have kind of been hearing that too?

Jay Shifman:

Well, I'm the first want to say that this is an absolutely beautiful moment. And I'm just honored to be a part of it as a podcasters myself, hearing what Lupita is saying to you, it's like the dream, right? I mean, this is what we all want it to, to hear from our guests that that our communities mean something. So this is very, very beautiful. And I'm honored to be here. I think it's really fascinating that the idea of leaning away or trying to mask the stutter as a guy in recovery. One of the lasting impacts from my struggles with substance misuse in my severe addiction is there's a neurological issue where your brain actually forgets continence. And it's funny to name that the, the neurological name for that starts with a continent and what's why I can't remember it. But where it comes up is I'll be having a conversation with someone. And all of a sudden, I'll forget the word airplane, and I'll be I won't be able to recall that word. And I can catch myself as I'm going towards it like oh my god, I don't, I cannot remember this simple word that you everybody should know. And I will do my best to pivot away and it will be very awkward. And if you didn't know any better, you would think that maybe this guy has a Christopher Walken way of speaking sometimes. But that's what I'm doing is I am trying to minimize the exposure of I cannot think of this word that every preschooler knows, you know, and that happens to me maybe once a day twice, if it's a bad day. And the idea that those of you in this veteran community, this is something that you've all mastered. It's like sadly beautiful that you have this skill that you almost wish in a perfect world you didn't you didn't ever have to develop.

Maya:  

That's so interesting. And I have never thought of it that way. But I love that because as stutters I feel like we have to constantly think on our feet, especially covert stutters and it takes it's like a lifelong self training, which now I'm start I really wanting to untrain myself and I was recently at the National Stuttering Association Conference where it was in person with people who stuttered for the first time in my entire life just surrounded by people who stuttered. And for the first time I was trying so hard to untrain myself of, of constantly catching my stutter before it happens, which makes my speech pattern very puzzling where it's like, it's not like the smooth thing. It's like a it's like so in the conference, I just hearing all the stuttering I just tried to just stutter through every conversation. And I was successful in certain incidences, but I still kept finding myself catching myself. And so I really resonated with what you said because it is a skill. And we are very intelligent in a way for being masters of it. And not every stutter can do that. Like I think, covert stutters have some sort of some sense of privilege and that we can hide our stutter and a lot of people who stutter can't. But I guess my point is that yeah, it is. It is, in a sense, beautiful, even though it is a shame that we've had to like, spend so much of our energy trying to hide something that we should never have done in the first place.

Lupita:

With what Jay said I will sometimes when I'm talking to you know anyone and I'm talking about my daughter and her name is Isabel. And sometimes the I like I get caught in the just in the eye. So instead of Isabel, I'll say my daughter, because it just, it just flows better, at least for me. So I'll just instead of the other day I took, I took Isabel to the park, I'll say, Oh, the other day I took my daughter to the park, it just flows. So it's just I, and it doesn't happen all the time. But I can definitely see it coming. So then I know, okay, this is what I'm going to switch to.

Jay:

So let me ask you something on that. Because when I can see it coming. When I struggle to think of a word, the first feeling even even after, you know, I've been struggling with this, now I'm in recovery 12 years, and I've been aware of it for a solid, let's say five or six years, at least, the first nanosecond, the feeling that I have is still one of panic, before I'm able to Alright, get myself together and try to steer the ship away from whatever that word was. And is that something Lupita that you also feel in those moments of a momentary panic before? Being able to write that ship or not write to turn the ship? Or have you gotten better at not feeling that sense of panic.

Lupita:

Oh, no, I, I panic, I get the sense sense of panic, I don't, I just just now that I'm starting to, like, get catch myself and try to not avoid the stutter. So I will use a lot of fillers. I will say, um, or I'll pretend that I'm like, when I'm thinking or that I have something like in my throat and I'll kind of like, make, like a, like, if I have, you know, sometimes you have like a scratch in your throat or something or an itch, and then you kind of, you know, go like, so I'll do that that'll be my filler and then go that'll get me. So I've, I didn't notice that until recently until I've been just learning and and it's been through this podcast, and then I've been just doing a little more reading, and I've I wouldn't when I realized that I use these fillers, it was like, Well, I didn't I I wasn't aware. But yes, I definitely do feel that that panic.

Jay:

I think this is incredibly fascinating to me, because, you know, obviously, our experiences are very different. Not experiences are the causes of that panic, I guess is very different, but our experiences are the same. And that is super interesting. Because, as you know, our gracious hosts here introduce me, I do not have what you would traditionally call a stutter. But because of this sort of whenever you want to call it neurological barrier, or whatever it is that I wrestle with, I also use a lot of those same tools, you were just saying Lupita. And that that's very interesting to me, that there's so much overlap, and yet our reasons for doing so are very vastly different.

Maya:

It continues to fascinate. It continues to fascinate me how many similar experiences, people who stutter have with other folks experiencing totally different types of you can call it struggles or just daily things that people have to deal with and the similarities in that. And that's why I love having co hosts who don't stutter, because almost every time there's this connection, and J I had no idea we shared so much similarity in that having to think about word replacement like that is. So that's such a cool discovery. Another similarity we have is building community around our struggle.

Jay:

Well, I can definitely say from from the substance misuse and addiction community that that that sense of community is so important as we think about staying in recovery. And a lot of it is just that, like anything else, we're better together than we are alone. And so I can imagine that Lupita what you were saying earlier about how this podcast which again is such a beautiful, beautiful fact that this podcast has allowed you to feel that sense of community and in my you should take that as such an incredible feather in your cap that you are creating this amazing community, but that it allows you to every day maybe chip away at some of that stigma that we all internalize about Are there parts of us that are not quote unquote, normal that, you know, that are not the the accepted part of everyday culture when you know, with us in the addiction community, that's getting rid of the idea that that what we went through was I mean, some sort of a failure.

Lupita:

I can definitely say that I have that I have internalized stigma around stuttering. Be, you know, when I was very young, in elementary school, and this was just like, the kind of when I realized, whoa, I talked differently. And people notice, you know, there was, I had a little friend, and she asked, just, you know, straight up asked, Why do you talk like that? I just stayed quiet. And I didn't know what to say, because I, I was just so little. And now, you know, as as an adult, I, especially at work, I feel like, because I work with so many, with professionals and I work with, with families, I fear, I have the stigma of this idea that they won't take me seriously, that I won't be taken seriously. Because my, my speech doesn't flow or because I don't I don't know, I don't talk like you know, quote unquote, normal people do. So it's, it's hard, it's been hard to learn that I have internalized that. And just to be more aware, and more mindful of when I feel that way, that's been a learning process, and it's continues to be.

Maya:

And that makes me think about your job in the human services field. And what what is your experience like, in the professional setting, especially flaring in? We're both women who stutter? How has that experience been like for you?

Lupita:

Yes, I. So I work with children in out of home care. So in foster care, or in, you know, some other type of out of home care. So I have constant communication with our volunteers and with social workers and just other professionals, and, of course, with the families and I will, before I go into these conversations, I'm already thinking, I need to, I need to be mindful of how I'm going to speak and how I'm going to go about this meeting. Because I don't want to, I don't want them to think that I'm unprofessional. And I my type of or, like the way I stutter is I have block blocks, or I get blocked at the beginning of like words or things like that. And then that's when I will, you know, bring in the fillers and things like that. And it's been, yeah, it's just thinking that or it's been it's a process trying to get away from the idea that when I'm having these meetings, that people will view me as a not prepared or incompetent. And that just comes from and I know, because I've done, I've done some work on myself for the past few months. And I know that it comes from just being pointed out, or being singled out. And when I was younger, and then also, couple of my family members also have this stutter and I just remember when they would stutter, they would get made fun of and I just like this, and I know that that's what I have in my mind. I don't want to get made fun of so I will I try you know to stay away from letting or trying to stay away from actually stuttering.

Maya:

The end of the year is fast approaching and proud stutter is setting a fundraising goal of $500 by the end of this year. This campaign is all about season three. We want to go big for season three. While we're still going to be doing a ton more episodes for season two. Doing a whole entire season takes a lot of planning time. And we really want to take the audio and sound design to the next level. And we also want to try to go after a lot more guests, and we can't do it without your support. Can you help proud stutter reached its goal of $500 to contribute to our end of year fundraiser to produce season three, go to www.proudstutter.com/donate. Thank you, everyone, for supporting the show.

Jay:  

I'm learning so much from this conversation as a person with people in my life who do stutter. I wonder is. So actually what I'm thinking back on is everyone's favorite movie when they're a kid, which is Billy Madison. And there's a very famous scene where he makes fun of a kid for stuttering. And it's I guess it's one of those things you never really realized when you're young that like, okay, that as a kid, that's very funny. But then you look back and you're like, Okay, that's actually a really horrible thing that that was that was part of that movie. And very clearly that that is those are moments that people internalize. I wonder if you know, when I'm struggling to come up a word with a word. I think for me that panic comes from, I am scared of people. Like feeling. Not being patient, I guess would be the right way to say it. Does that resonate? Is that is that and sort of jumping in? Or you are saying not being prepared? Is it? Is it because you think you're coming off as less intelligent in that way? Or is it more that you know, we all know, and especially as women, you know, guys jumping in and cutting you off is a frequent thing and all of your lives, I'm sure. Is that a thing that you are extra cognizant of? Because of your stutter?

Lupita:  

Yeah, I have had a lot of I this is constant I have when I try to or when I am avoiding using the fillers when I, you know, think, Okay, I'm going to just I'm just going to do me, I'm just going to be myself. That's when people just fill in and we'll say the word that I'm trying to say, based on the conversation that we're having. And I will just say yeah, yeah, that or I'll just kind of nod and agree. But I'm like, No, I was I was going and I was getting there. Like I wanted to I was gonna say the word. So that is that is hard. And yes, definitely fearing that people won't have the patience to but then again, how will they have the patience if they don't know that? I that that's what I you know, that I stutter so that, you know, they are also conscience about about that. So it's, it's just trying to, again, for me, right now, it's a process, to know, and to learn these things about myself and then to feel comfortable with voicing that out. And two, I mean, the first, my The first step was talking to my sister about it and just letting her know and when I talked to her, I just, I let it I stutter and I let myself be so that that's been just awesome. And to think that with my sister I mean you know, my my sister like I was never able to really be my true 100% self and now I am able to that's just been huge for me and I know that it's then you know, then I think okay, then it's gonna be the next person and then it's gonna be the next person and then I'll you know eventually just stick around away and I and I know that I will I will get there but I do definitely feel that if I do it when I'm not ready, that I'll just it'll just take a toll on on me. So I'm trying to you know, do do it in the best way that I that I can.

Maya:

Your approach in taking baby steps that sounds really healthy to me and it seems like to be a good process of slowly opening up. For me. It might seem like I just woke up one morning started a podcast became out about my stutter, but really it before committing to the show. It really took me also taking baby steps like I would open up to one person and then another person and each time I opened up it was just that much more freeing and so I'm really happy that at, you know, your your following, you know what you think is the best for you. And I'm just so happy you, you have your sister and your daughter in your corner. And I'm sure you know, as you continue to open up that you'll just feel more and more comfortable in your own skin.

Lupita:

Yeah. And I also I've also learned to have noticed and have catched to myself that I will stutter more, or I'll have the I'll just I'll just stutter more when I'm talking in Spanish when I when I'm speaking Spanish. So I don't know if that's like, I haven't done much research in that. I don't know if that's like if you speak two languages, if that has something to do, I don't know. But I just know that when I am speaking in Spanish, it'll come out even more URL, and you know, feel even more panicked.

Maya:

I keep hearing that stuttering in another language that isn't your first language is always super tough. And I've had the same experience with languages too. I've every new language I tried to learn I find myself stuttering way more in that language than than in English. Jay, I want to turn it to you. I just love the phrase choose your struggle like there is that this power in that phrase, even though oftentimes with my stutter, I feel out of control. I feel like for the first time in my life with proud stutter, I'm like controlling and choosing stuttering. I feel like that phrase is stuck with me. And I kind of just wanted to hear more about the origin of that.

Jay:

Well, I I definitely appreciate that it resonated so much with you. And when we first met, that was something that I was very impressed with, with you, because you were so very clearly choosing to embrace this part of you. And yeah, I mean, that was evident from from day one at that conference. The that where choose your struggle comes from, is the fact that I am a white male born of privilege, immense privilege, both financially and just the fact that I am a white male in this world, especially in this country. And when I was young, I never had to worry about where my next meal was gonna come from, where if there was gonna be a roof over my head, that kind of stuff. And so I was able to I was afforded the privilege of being able to choose what I was going to struggle for. And by that I meant, you know, what causes I was going to get involved with and so forth. And then when I struggled with addiction for that period of my life, I lost that ability, my struggle became survival it became avoiding withdrawal was my number one struggle for multiple years, and withdrawal is awful. And just getting through the day, and then getting into recovery and all that. And so when I got into recovery and fully in 2015 embraced my path, I realized that what I had regained was the ability to choose what I was going to struggle for again. And for me that was making this choice to sort of like you embrace this part of me that so many people in my community keep hidden. And I decided I was done hiding it and I was gonna be open about it. And for me that the struggle that I chose was using my second chance in a world where most people don't get there first. And to help end the stigma and promote education around these topics I care about. And I truly think that no matter who we are, we all have that ability because yes, this one fortune, especially right now, there's so much that is being chosen for us that we have literally no control over, but in our lives and I think you're both of you are such incredible testaments to this. There are things that we can choose and you're both making these incredible choices to say Enough with this stigma. This is a part of who I am. I'm not going to keep you know, allowing that stigma to tie that piece of me and that's very it's amazing to see and and I am proud to know both you and cosign your fight.

Maya:

Thanks, Jay. You are an incredible ally to the stuttering community and I would love you know, to cosign your fight as well. So please sign me up for that. So to end the episode, I thought it would be cool to talk about what we're hopeful for. And sorry to put you on the spot Lupita. But I'm wondering if you can tell us what you're hopeful for.

Lupita:

I would say that to be able to be comfortable in my, with my speech and that my daughter can feel can see that in me, and she can feel comfortable in her speech because, or with her speech, because she also stutters. And she also has, it's like, we're the same person. We're both trying to get things out, and we can't, and it's so it's actually hilarious when we're like arguing, like me arguing with an almost five year old, and we're just, we can't get things out of our mouth. And it's like, okay, let's take a break. And I will say, I will tell her, Okay, let's take a break, let's breathe, and then we can continue. So that, you know, so I don't, because I don't want her to feel the same way I did growing up. And that when she gets to adulthood that she has to be struggling with feeling comfortable with her speech. That's my hope for her and for you know, other for other people, too. And other other kids.

Maya:

Wow, how lucky is she to have a mother that also stutters that's amazing. And I know it's not something you probably wished on her to also have a stutter. But what better support system then, to have someone that she can, she'll never be alone in her stutter, which is amazing.

Lupita:

Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely special. And I've definitely learned to see it as that as something special in this just another bond that we, that we have. And it's, it's nice to see that we can both be ourselves with with each other.

Jay:

I spend a lot of time feeling hopeless right now, because of just gestures at everything. But the one there are a couple of things that give me a lot of hope. And I think one of them is that more and more guys like me, are are happily taking the backseat, and we are moving away from this idea that white privilege, dudes have to be the forefront i and we're almost moving towards a point where that is not only is that not the norm, but it's actually a negative right when I show up at places, and this has happened to me a couple of times, and I've been invited to speak and I look at the list of everyone speaking and it's all white dudes, I'm you know, not not a chance not knocking the thing, not a thing I'm going to do. And you know, that used to be sort of that would be weird if somebody said no because of that. And now that's becoming not only more accepted, but like more the norm for people to be like this isn't cool. Like we got to do better than this. And so diverse voice diverse set of voices, both from lived experience over learned experience and you know, just different different people from different backgrounds is only going to make us better. So that is when I try to find a little bit of hope stuff like that gives me hope.

Maya:

This conversation is giving me so much hope and I think that is a great place to end. Thank you both so much for being on proud Stetter. And that's it for this episode of proud stutter. This episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me, Maya Chupkov. Our music was composed by a gusto, Denise and our artwork by Mara zekiel and Noah Chupkov. If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode, visit us at www dot proud stutter.com. And if you liked the show, you can leave us a review wherever you're listening to this podcast. Want to leave us a voicemail, check out our show notes for that the number to call in more importantly, tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening. Be proud and be you.