The Psychology Behind Our Responses To Stuttering

Transcript

Maya Chupkov:

Welcome back to Proud stutter today. You will be listening to part one of a two-part conversation with Benedict Sheehan a person who stutters and Talia sheehen, his wife Benedict is a successful Grammy nominated conductor and composer and his wife. Talia is a professional vocalist and music educator in part one. We talk about the psychology behind why people have similar responses to stuttering. We all know it. It's the look and how loved ones can be stuttering allies and advocates.

Part 2 will release in two weeks where we will dive a little deeper into Benedict's stuttering story and how his recent ADHD diagnosis has impacted his relationship to his stutter before we get into the episode though. I have an exciting announcement to share. I've been working really hard with fellow stuttering Advocate Johnny Pina, you might have heard him on a previous episode. We've been working on a California resolution for stuttering awareness week and I am thrilled to announce the resolution is live and public and was introduced last Friday by assembly member Robert Revis who is also a person who stutters proud stutter is planning a community rally and press conference at the state capitol in Sacramento on Thursday, May 4th at around 10:30. Am we're still confirming the time and yeah, we're so and we hope you can join us in Sacramento. We're so excited for California to recognize the stuttering community.

Okay, so now let's get to the interview.

I’m Maya Chupkov and I'm a woman who stutters welcome to Proud stutter a Show about stuttering and embracing verbal diversity in an effort to change how we talk about it one conversation at a time. Talia and Benedict, welcome both of you to Proud stutter. I am so excited to have you both here. Thank you. Wonderful to be here.

Talia we're going to start with you. So we spoke a little bit before recording about how you collaborate with Benedict when you present with him on stage and how you Model Behavior for people who may never have heard stuttering like a lot of your audiences. I'm not sure if you realize this, but I see you as really Like every like what we had talked about before recording like you like you have this amazing way of showing how to be an advocate an ally to the stuttering. Community so I would love it if you can share some of your tips and how to be a thoughtful conversation partner with a person who stutters. And what advice would you give about being a good Ally to a loved one? Who stutters?

Talia Sheehan:

Hmm. Well, it didn't actually occur to me that I was an advocate for stutters or for my husband until we actually started working together as clinicians. So where we would have to stand up in front of people who were paying us to come to them and teach them and help them to get better at the craft that that we practice which is choral singing and there would always be a moment. Where as we stood up in front of the new crowd together. We would introduce ourselves.

And Benedict was very good at disarming the crowds that he spoke to with has always been good at that frankly. Probably even in your teenager, uh with some humor and so it occurred to me as we were doing this the more we did this it occurred to me that people would look at me. When he was talking and I realized that I was modeling for these people how to listen. Through and around his stutter and it became something that I tried to do very deliberately and our co-teaching and co-presenting. I do actually have three I think insights that come from the actual the work that we do which is was working with people vocalizing in a way that a lot of people find very very challenging. There are lots of adults who I mean,

Let alone teenagers but there are lots of adults who don't feel like they can sing. So I thought I would share three insights that I've used with my vocal students to help them navigate that. Sense of of uncertainty and fear that really does create a physical response in them and it's part of why people I think

Are reluctant to try to vocalize in that way because there's a physiological response fear shuts down the mechanisms that that create ease and singing. so as as a vocal coach who's trying to encourage people and and leave space for people to vocalize in a way that makes them emotionally and physically uncomfortable. I kind of maybe do a similar thing around around the stuttering. So I'll just share those three. I'll show these three ideas with you and I would love to I would love to know what you might think about that. And I'm dedic what you think about that because I didn't actually tell him what these were either. Um, so the thing that the first thing that I like to tell people when they're working with new singers or they're working with people who haven't had a lot of experience with singing is this fundamental psychological reality. That fear is our primary psychological state.

And I call this fear is first in the discipline of psychology. It was a little like they kind of got it wrong for a while doing research with with lab animals thinking that in order to create a fear state so that the neurological action of fear could be studied. The test subjects would have to be somehow stimulated into that fear.

Um and what the researcher just didn't realize for a good, you know couple decades into the discipline was that they had already normalized to their environment from an initial state of fear. So basically the Lab Rats would be moved into a new cage and new environment where everything was unfamiliar. And then they would have to get acquainted with that environment and map it as being safe. And then they were not afraid.

But the initial response to any new stimulus is is almost always fear so fear is our our fundamental psychological state.

Though we have a lot of safe structures around us as civilized humans. And so we don't realize how good we have it so fear is first recognizing that for everyone fear is first. Can give listeners I think a moment to sort of make space. And acknowledge that the person they're speaking to if they have a stutter is very likely experiencing.

Physiologically experiencing fear that kind of like leads to the next one which is time moves differently for people in different. experiencing different things

So as a vocal coach, I tell people you have to trust you can take you can take time to take a breath. You can take time to sing a vowel. You can take time to think about the next thing you're going to do. You have to know that what feels like an eternity for you as you make these choices. Most people don't even notice. And I don't realize you took an extra second to do that thing. They don't they don't realize you took a breath. Don't be, you know, too anxious to fill up the time. because you're in this heightened awareness state, so As a listener to a stutterer. I have to know.

And I think this happens in the moment where where it's unexpected where I experience I experience someone with a speech difference and I'm not anticipating it and this is not the case from the Benedict because at this point I'm I have familiarized myself with this speech patterns that I at this point basically just don't hear it. Um, so for someone who is meeting someone with a speech difference. that jar sensation is basically you're being sucked into their psychological time like instantly. And so that is actually I think an asset that someone who's listening to a starter can actually be present. with the stutterer in their experience of this time that is charged psychologically and emotionally and so just being present and not looking like you need to get away or you need time needs to move faster can help with this fear is first problem, too. And being willing to step out of your own experience of time into their experience of time for a moment and then the final thing.

We know it viscerally and that is that facial expressions kind of the emotions that are conveyed by facial expressions map on to people's brain stems. They don't go through our conscious processing. We don't think about a facial expression that we're seeing and then have either an empathy or a fight or flight or a anxiety or an orienting reflex sort of response. That just goes right to our our brain stem and and the clinical evidence for that is this thing notice blind sight where people who have neurological damage that has caused blindness will still have a parasympathetic nervous system response to an angry face, even though they perceive they do not perceive anything visually consciously their bodies just respond to the angry face. as a starter you're talking to someone and they suddenly they don't realize that they've been Jarred into a different psychological perception of time and they have to respond to their sort of fear of the that transition and respond to the perceived fear of the person that they're talking to but they're doing this all visibly on their face and that that visible Journey Is mapping right onto the stutters brainstem, which is quite frankly. Probably making them quite a lot worse. so recognize that fear is first for everybody including you as a listener. Be willing to step into. in kind of a maybe a really fast agile way into the psychological time of the person speaking and then where oh, my fear is first with your thing makes a lot of sense and also the other two tips, especially because you know a lot of stutters we over and over again we have to deal with the look that we get from people who may not realize that we're stuttering and it might be a shock to them. And so that facial expressions latching on to the other person's brain stem. It's just it makes so much sense, and I'm wondering if you can talk more about the comparisons between stuttering and singing because I've been a singer myself and that just really fascinates me and the analog to what it's like to learn to sing and to be a listener to somebody who's in a vulnerable place a vocalizing. It becomes a sort of shared curiosity. of what the moment has Not necessarily what's going to happen or what the motivations are, but but what it's like to be together in that moment. So I think it's kind of more like a partnership. You enter your enter into a partnership with a person speaking and that's gonna make for a better interaction. On any number of levels, but I think those are three tips to make the partnership a better quality. Right from the beginning.

I think you treat a little bit you treat listening to it to anyone and being in a conversation with anyone as something. Something called collaborative like when you meet somebody you well for the first time or somebody that you are it's something that you don't know.

We you know, there's this wall. and I think I think a lot lot of that means obviously we've been married for a long time. And so the wall is a you know, it's a different not it's not maybe not not it's not it's not that the there but but I what some of the things I've seen you try to do like like if I'm speaking in front of in front of in front of in front of an audience is you model just with your just with your body language. A kind of way of a way of supportive and oh and and oh and and supportive and and so supportive and open the listening. and you also have a very acute awareness of what you're doing with your face most of the time I think not all the time, but that's a different definition but but I think in particular when we're in front of an audience, because we we do speak in front of an audience pretty pretty often to get together we give we give choir workshops and

Co co but lectures and that that kind of thing and and so you actually do a lot of modeling and I think when people in the audience see that they it I think just unconsciously they they will relax like you try to listen to me like Well with those three things that you said.

But like like that that there isn't anything wrong. and I think that's what's that's the main thing that's really important, you know, like every every stutter has these experience of trying to work their way through a sentence or they introduced themselves or you know, and just like you watch the face of the person in front of you and they they look like they've they've just seen a plane crash and The Listener becomes afraid and then that causes the Sutter to become more from Of afraid and I think that's the import of the fear is first thing too is to re-realize that like in in this interaction. Both parties are afraid so you kind of have to like everybody has to be told it's okay. Like the first thing I'll say it's like yeah, I'm Benedict and you may also have realized that I'm stuttering. It's not your imagined and it imagine Nation. It's not a dream or some kind of weird like parallel universe that you've said that you've stumbled in to to. And you know so that so just me being open or it you know, it's like they have to be told it's okay because a stutter has to realize that their listener is afraid of them.

Well, I think I think you have to tell them that it's okay to notice it because a lot of people I think work really hard to figure out how not to noticing it notice notice it notice a difference or to look like they don't. Yeah, they they want to look like oh, I I know there is nothing wrong, but you can also see you can also I can immediately see people trying to pretend like they're like, I'm not stuttering.

It doesn't it doesn't work. It doesn't work at all friends. They know, you know, just so you people out in podcast land. They know you know, so it's nice to get it. It's nice to just be like, yeah. This is a thing now we can do other stuff together, right? So just to put it on out in the open and that's what a lot. You've seen you see in the in speech therapy, too. It's like you're taught to advertise and but but I think it's also really interesting because we do this co-- this co-speaking thing and and so there's the stutterer and then there's the non-stutter and here's how a non-utter should this into a stutter

Maya Chupkov:

Benedict and Talia. Thank you so much for those tips and Just having this conversation around someone who stutters and someone who doesn't stutter and really talking about. Some of the physiological and psychological things that are happening in a conversation. And how a lot of the reactions we have as humans are really tied to how our brain works. And so it's really no one's fault both on the stutter side and the listeners aside to have these types of reactions and I think this conversation is bringing a lot of awareness and openness because I can there's a lot of emotion and people can feel guilty about um, you know responding a certain way and As the stutters we can feel a lot of Shame about like why can't we speak this way, but learning the science and being aware I think is just you we can get that much closer to acceptance and understanding. Yeah, exactly.

Benedict:

And I mean, it's it's something we've had to learn too. I mean, it's like yeah. like I know it's hard to it can be hard to it can be hard to to listen to somebody who's daughters, especially if it's something you have an experience before so it's also like I try to tell I try to tell people it's okay with me that you are having uncomfortable reactions. It's not going to upset me. Like I usually make a joke about it and like all I first say often like say I say, I just I actually just do it deliberately to get a detention and that always gets all laugh. I I try to come up with some new material. I've used that line a lot. But then I also like have said before like if like I get stuck on a word for particularly long time and you're feeling on you know, you're feeling a little bit antsy. Why don't you You know, why don't you get get up and go get a cup of coffee. And by the time I get back I'll be done with the word and we'll be able to move on. You know, so it's also like I you know.

I mean and I've had interactions where I've spoken in front of an audience and and like especially I was wondering for particular was a group of high school coolers, which is in some way the most kind of terrifying audience for for me. I I really enjoy speaking to high schoolers, but there was one time in particular where it's an audience of high school coolers and somebody just involuntary started like what? started to laugh uncontrollably and

Yeah, you know but it's like it's like but it makes everybody in the room super on on super uncomfortable. So I I had to figure out kind of on my Feet I forget exactly what I said, but I basically I used the opportunity to just make a joke about my stuttering and that helped it relieved it. It relieved the tension. At least I think you know, I mean it's still super uncomfortable but it's like we have to not pretend that it's not happening and we have to not pretend that it's not not odd or strange when when it's not something you've experienced before so that's also something.

I think that I mean I try I mean something in some way it's it's in some way something that only I can to do but in speaking about how Speaking about how tall is an advocate or an or an ally I I like the word that you use. How she's an ally you know, like she's the first to laugh at my at my jokes when I make a joke about stuttering. So she's also modeling for them that it's okay to laugh at this joke.

Talia:

Yeah. timing For for me there's a timing about how to how to respond to a particular statement at the point at which. Golly, I don't this interesting to kind of articulate. So if Benedict is making a point the the sort of like punchline of the point not just a joke, but just some some sort of. Declamatory statement when when the point of it comes a little bit after the block and that's usually or whatever this this speech difference is at that time. That's usually when he's trying to add emphasis and articulate a thing is often when the pressure sort of increases and it's kind of more likely so sometimes I noticed people get really distracted by by the block or the the workaround and and then when the when the punchline or the point hits they're still trying to process the the speech difference that they heard and they don't realize that the point has happened. And so partly I just don't notice. I don't notice the the speech difference happening and I'm more able to just be like, oh, yeah, that's cool. But I started doing that very deliberately as a way to help people get out of their being distracted by the extra sounds and be able to just kind of shelve them away and be like, oh, yeah. No, this is the point cool and then it keeps the flow of the interaction going in a way that Were they just left to have to process? Everything they heard they would be stuck on trying to make sense of of that. You know that that particular speech

Maya:

And that's a raft for part one. So I try to time those two parts conversation with Benedict and Talia sensitively. Thank you so much for listening. And please stay tuned for part two. It's gonna be super interesting. If you thought this was really interesting. Just just wait we dive more into Benedict's story and something that I've never had a conversation with on this podcast before but how his ADHD diagnosis really helped him come to terms with his stutter and more about those intersectionalities Part 2 episode of proud stutter was produced and edited by me Maya chupkov. Our music was composed by Augusto Denise and our artwork by Mara Ezekiel and Noa Chupkov.

If you have an idea or want to be part of a future episode visit us at www.proudstutter.com, and if you like the show, you can leave us a review wherever you are listening to this podcast want to leave us a voicemail check out our show notes for the number to call in more importantly tell your friends to listen to until we meet again. Thanks for listening be proud and be you.